RECREATIONAL DATING
Henry Cloud has an article entitled Dating Is Not About Marriage up on CT that is sure to attract some discussion. In the piece, Cloud argues that dating is a viable ‘end in itself’ so that it should not necessarily carry with it a commitment. He says, “Date to have fun. Date to learn. Date to experience things. If you are only dating to marry, you are not experiencing life, and you are missing out on knowing a lot of good people along the way.” Unfortunately, Cloud simplifies the issue into an either/or dilemma where Christian singles apparently have to choose - either you have lots of fun (without commitment) or you have a committed and forward-looking relationship (with all sorts of disfunction and no fun).
Cloud proposes that his single readers adopt the following pledge in order to change their “goal and expectations of dating from looking for a mate to learning and experiencing”:
I will date as an end in and of itself. I will no longer see dating as a place only to find a mate, but as a place to learn, grow, experience, and serve other people. It is my new laboratory of learning, growth, and experience.
Unfortunately, Cloud’s understanding seems to be driven more by the therapeutic community than by a biblical theology of marriage and singlehood. While those of us who are married must be sensitive to the frustration that so many of our single brothers and sisters feel (who rightly long for a godly spouse), we must respond with a more helpful approach. Within the typical evangelical church, the overwhelming problem is not that singles are not dating (because they have some misguided idea of ‘courtship’), but that a huge number are in fact dating who do not have the spiritual maturity to sustain a healthy and committed relationship. The antidote to disfunctional relationships is not to encourage singles to just ‘get out there and dig in’, but to encourage them to dive into service within their local church, to take advantage of this season of life to follow hard after God and to think and pray through those characteristics that they value in a mate. Let’s be honest - dating is about marriage… even unbelievers recognize that at some distorted level.
June 4th, 2005 at 6:56 pm
Cloudy commentary
http://matthewhall.net/?p=569 this Henry Cloud guy is a total nutjob. He used to speak at my old church in Malibu, and at the time we thought he was really cool. He wrote this book called “Boundaries”, so we all started establishing…
June 6th, 2005 at 10:39 am
Matt,
Great commentary! Thank you for creating awareness to Henry Cloud’s article. I echo your response to the article in Christianity Today. It seems Mr. Cloud’s Christian worldview on dating has become skewed by the American ideal of “ME ME ME”.
June 6th, 2005 at 3:41 pm
Wow. Hard to hear people like Cloud say this, but it’s not enough of a surprise anymore.
June 7th, 2005 at 1:49 am
It’s really funny to me when I read something like what Cloud has to say. I took that same position most of my life and at 26 after another broken relationship that lasted too long and wasted more of my life, I realized that I needed to be dating for a purpose. After I finished seminary and started listening to Al Mohler tell me to grow up, I took relationships a lot more seriously and got married soon after that. Man, am I glad I stopped listening to guys like Henry Cloud.
June 7th, 2005 at 6:04 am
I saw Cloud’s article as a reaction against the extremism of being so particular about whom you date that you tend to write off certain people before even getting to know them, because you just can’t see yourself being together with them in the long term. In that sense, it doesn’t seem so bad.
I agree with ‘dating to marry’ but I also sort of believe in ‘exploring’. Like, if a Christian guy were to ask me out on a date, I would go at least once instead of giving an outright no because he’s ‘not my type’ or something like that. Cloud is right that the people we think are right for us may not be the people who are the best match for us, so I’ve told myself I’m going to give each guy a fighting chance — you never know what God has in store!
June 7th, 2005 at 9:32 am
Yet one more group that likes to take things people say and bend them to your own desires. Nice manipulation!!!!!!!!!. You people are going to grow an ignorant group of Christians who have no relevance to society. I am NOT defending Henry Cloud, but we need to be responsible in teaching and mentoring single people that dating someone from the opposite sex is a valued thing, and that if and when you realize they are not “the person”. stop dating them and have a valued friendship, if that is the case. Please quit being so close minded read the red letters.
June 7th, 2005 at 2:27 pm
Thanks to all for your (mostly) thoughtful comments. I do need to clarify something from my own perspective (thanks to John’s reply). I am not against ‘dating’ - if by dating we mean Joe asks Sally out for coffee to get to know her. What I do think is harmful and at odds with a biblical theology of human ontology and marriage, is for Joe (or Sally) to date just for the sake of dating. I know the language of courtship raises red flags for many, but it has returned into usage because of this very issue of semantics. It is clear that some of us mean one thing when we speak of ‘dating’ and others mean something quite different. My main contention with Cloud is that marriage should be held to be the purpose of dating - one dates toward the end of finding a spouse. Whether one will go about it in a Christ-honoring and biblically informed way is a separate issue.
John - can you elaborate on “quit being so close minded read the red letters”?
June 8th, 2005 at 9:56 am
Actaully, after reading the article and then your blog post, I don’t think he is saying all the bleak “recreational-theraputic-me-centered” stuff that you think he is. I see him talking about LEARNING HOW TO CHOOSE A MATE, not simply FINDING one.
On a personal note, I just started seeing someone a month ago, and have never dated before. Man, let me tell you all the pressure you get from other couples at church “to get married someday” to the person you are simply trying to get to know!
And as far as “biblical courtship” goes, that is as anachronistic as ‘biblical driving.” The commands to love one as oneself still apply, of course, but there isn’t some timeless method of “finding a mate” spelled out in Scripture simply because Scripture was never written for such a purpose.
June 9th, 2005 at 3:24 pm
Adam - I recognize that Cloud is clearly trying to fuse his perspective on dating with the gospel. So yes, in a sense he certainly does envision his approach as providing for a healthy and biblical selflessness. My point is that while he thinks of it as such, it will inevitably result otherwise (and has done so within modern culture). In other words, I don’t doubt that Cloud has noble intentions - I just think that the lack of a broad biblical theology and an anemic theology of human identity condemns his thesis to long-term failure in the daily lives of singles.
To be honest, I’m not a militant courtship guy (although many of my good friends are). I certainly agree with them though that however singles are to interact romantically, it should be purposive - namely, toward the end of marriage. So I completely agree that you should be simply getting to know the lucky (ah! Matt the Calvinist said ‘lucky’!) girl you are seeing. But I would say (and I suspect that you might agree) that there should be an openness in admitting that if things go well, you are both anticipating marriage. Is that fair?
June 9th, 2005 at 4:23 pm
That is very fair
June 10th, 2005 at 10:02 am
There is dating and there is dating. Back in the dark ages, over a quarter of a century ago, I would have very much agreed with Henry Cloud’s article, because that was very much the prevailing concept of dating among the Christians I knew. Then I hit my mid-twenties or so and became weary of the disappointment and hurt that this dating method caused.
“Try the upfront approach! Be honest!” someone urged me. I learned a simple truth: if you tell a man that this date is only a recreational date, that you only intend to date him once or twice, that you have no intention of becoming serious, he will take this as a declaration of your undying love for him. He will KNOW, in his heart of hearts, that you are madly in love with him but for some odd reason too afraid to give in to your REAL FEELINGS. It doesn’t matter how misguided he might be, but there will be little convincing him that he is wrong.
It’s the same as telling a man, “I only think of you as a friend.” You might as well tell him, “I am head over heels with you and want to have your children. Now.”
At least that was my experience.
The best decision I ever made was not to date a man even once, no matter how casually, if I knew I had no intention of considering him seriously as someone I might marry.
The next date I went on (after turning down more dates than I’d had in my entire life up until then!) was with the man I’ve now been married to for over two decades.
Your mileage may vary.
July 11th, 2005 at 4:24 pm
Sorry it took me so long to reply, When I say read the Red Letters, I am talking about being a follower of Christ.
Jesus never said “date or dont date”, he said ” he who is without sin, throw the first stone.” That being said, we have the Holy Spirit to guide us just as Jesus did when He was here on earth. We need to mindful of what Jesus said and follow the leading of the Holy Spirit.
When you actually start following Him, you will find a freedom in that we are to live selfless life.
Now, we are flesh and can can lead to some poor choices, but remember that Wisdom seekd a multitude of counselors.
What it all boils down to is that we are to live our lives commited to Him and some of you out there might consider this heresy, but Paul did not have it right all of the time, nor does anyone else(including authors of the bible). We are all to work out our salvation with fear and trembling.
When you read and stick to the Red Letters it is both more restrictive than society would allow you to think, but very freeing spiritually. We have tried for the last 2000 years to apply exactly what went on in Corinth, or anywhere else to today. Well that would be like trying to comprehend Windows XP with a TRS80 manual. It does not fit.
We are under the spirit of the law, not the letter.
Back to the discussion, to date or not. Well listen to Him, submit yourself to great accountability, and live and enjoy life.
One day we will be in Heaven worshiping the Great Almighty, and if we even remember this, we will look back and laugh about how seriously we took these small things.
September 26th, 2005 at 4:00 am
We date to have fun and meet more new people. Yet dating is something more than that, too. We date with the hope of finding the right person with whom we could spend our lifetime and with whom we could build a wonderful family.
August 17th, 2008 at 8:41 pm
[...] Hall takes exception to Cloud’s position: “Unfortunately, Cloud simplifies the issue into an either/or [...]